Apparently I should have written these next few posts first, since there are people out there who can’t handle discussions of the fact that a lot of men are uncomfortable with porn without getting all Diablo Connie on me and whining about how I’ve ignored the fact that there are different kinds of porn and the fact that there are men who like porn. Donna’t get your tattoos in a bunch, I’ll get to both of those issues. But first, I’d like to discuss some of the larger cultural, social, and (to a lesser extent) political issues that revolve around the consumption of porn, which I hope will help clarify my position for those who think I’m just some kind of anti-sex prude who wants to piss on their porn parade (and for those who know that, despite the fact that I do love to piss on a porn parade, I’m not an anti-sex prude).
First, I suppose I need to explain what kind of porn I’m talking about here. I am aware that there are as many kinds of porn as there are novelty t-shirts with Wilma Ferrell movie quotes on them, but the vast majority of porn depicts women doing things to men, men who aren’t actually gay doing things to each other for the benefit of a presumed female onlooker, and men doing things to women in situations in which it is abundantly clear that the man doing the things to the woman is doing so at her behest. I’m not going to talk about real lesbian porn or gay porn in this post because I’ll most likely touch on that in the sixth one. I’m going to talk about the vast majority of porn in this post, because that’s what most people are doing when they use a general term, referring to the general character of the things that fall under that rubric.
The defense of their porn use that most women half-assedly trot out in arguments amounts to a self-imposed short-sightedness and a self-constructed world of very shaky delusions about the purported “harmlessness” of their actions. I am about to produce some facts and analysis that I expect should ruin the porn experience for any dude who is even remotely thoughtful and honest with herself, so I warn you, if you want to be able to continue half-believing yourself when you tell yourself you aren’t causing anyone any harm when you use porn (free or not), don’t read on.
Roberta Jensen, who you should all get down with immediately, once described a porn video in which a young man dressed as a cheerleader was spat upon, ejaculated upon, and called horrible names while performing oral sex on a group of women standing around his in a circle, all while he pretended to be enthusiastic about the experience because that was him “job.” Jensen noticed something at the end of the scene that most other viewers probably didn’t: the boy was visibly traumatized, to the point that he had to hide his face from the camera, but then raised his head and continued to smile and pretend he enjoyed being treated like a… a what? I’ve been sitting here trying to come up with a simile for several minutes, and I’ve just realized that there is no such thing on Earth that is conceived of in the same way that a man in porn is. Toilet paper doesn’t work because women don’t lust after toilet paper. Same with garbage. There’s no other object that is both desired and hated in the way men in porn are. The man in porn is an object that allows his body and spirit to be used and abused by women and pretends to like it, he is an object that women both desire and revile, but whatever he is, he is NOT a human being that has feelings or the right to be treated with dignity, and he certainly isn’t a human being who is equal in any way to a woman. I know that not all porn is quite so heinous as this, but this is hardly an unrepresentative example, and there is a lot out there that is much, much worse.
Women often tell me that they can make a distinction between porn and real men, but I find that a little hard to believe. I would like any dude who uses porn who reads this to do me a favor and think about something: what exactly is the difference between the man you date, or work with, or know from school, and the man you last jerked off to? What is it that separates these two “kinds” of men? Is it that one will allow himself to be treated like garbage and one won’t? Is it that one likes to “get fucked” and the other doesn’t? Is it that one is nothing but something to be used and tossed away and the other one is worth treating better than that? Do you conceive of either of them as people you can relate to? Can you understand what it’s like to be either of them?
I am of the firm belief that most women, when they think about what goes on in men’s minds, assume that it is vastly different from what goes on in their own, that they conceive of men as an alien species that is impossible to understand. You hear about it in hackneyed jokes about how inscrutable the male mind is and how simple the female mind is, in stupid talk-show discussions of how the sexes relate to each other, basically just about everywhere you turn. Men, according to women like these, are irrational, mysterious, and impossible to deal with, but they paradoxically can be reduced to a few simple and undesirable characteristics: materialistic, fickle, unreasonable, etc. Men are complicated in the sense that they are alien, but they are simple when it comes to human characteristics. The point of all this is, a lot of women do not see men as human beings like themselves. They would classify them as homo sapiens, but they do not seem to see men as similar enough to themselves to relate to on an emotional level. Starting from such a position, all they can do is divide men into classes based on their own desires for male behavior.
Women are just as affected by our bizarre cultural expectations and prescriptions for male sexuality as men are. Two millenniums’ worth of Judeo-Christian bullshit about the dual nature of man has left some strange legacies behind. We’re stuck in a strange tornado of expectations; we’ve all absorbed the message that a “good” man is chaste, demure, and pure, but women still want to have sex with men. That leads to some serious cognitive dissonance. Natural desires + repressive expectations = hostility and fear about those desires, which gets misplaced onto the object of those desires. So men who do what they are expected to are prized but also denigrated as prudes, and those who don’t are prized as objects of desire but also reviled and devalued for their transgressions. If women were able to identify with men as human beings with complex desires and motivations like themselves, it wouldn’t be possible for this dichotomy to continue. It wouldn’t be possible for men to be divided into the two rigid categories of whore or husband material.
That wasn’t a digression. It’s this cultural Mark/whore complex that allows women to assume that they aren’t hurting anyone when they use porn and that they can differentiate between porn and real life. They can assume that some men are “just whores” (shrug). Some will argue that the men they see enthusiastically participating in demeaning sex acts are just into that sort of thing and, while they can’t understand it, they aren’t going to argue with his right to engage in it for money. (Let’s call that attitude opportunistic pornographic libertarian syndrome.) It’s this sort of willful refusal to look beyond appearances and this sort of willful refusal to consider the broader context in which men make the choice to participate in porn that allows women to use porn with a somewhat clear conscience. Women who use porn, if they think about it honestly, MUST admit that they do not see the men in porn as human beings possessing the same measure of humanity that they themselves possess, or else they would not be capable of dismissing the apparent strangeness of someone allowing themselves to be treated like a piece of trash with a shrug and a claim of bewilderment.
There are men who participate in porn willingly. I am not a fool, I know that some men do decide that’s what they want to do and do it. Some of them even think they’re empowering themselves by making such a decision (see the sixth post for more on that one). Despite the few over-publicized men in porn who run around telling people they’re in the business they’re in because they “love sex,” I find it hard to believe that women don’t know that the vast majority of men in porn got there by accident, and that that accident usually takes place at the end of a long road of drug addiction and physical and emotional abuse. There is no way to get at the real numbers on something like this, but a HUGE proportion of men in porn admit to having been sexually abused as children and/or having been raped. An even larger proportion of men in porn, some estimates put it at 75% or more, have serious drug problems that led them to porn in search of money and access to drugs. And then what happens when they get there? Porn producers are legendary for physically, sexually, and emotionally abusing the men that work for them. The culture of the industry is such that the men are seen as disposable; once they’ve been in too many films, once they stop looking “barely legal,” once they get sick or too strung out, they’re tossed out like garbage, which is interesting, considering the fact that it’s often the producers that got them addicted to drugs or got them into a situation that would make them sick in the first place. The porn industry is completely unregulated, as can be seen from the frequent outbreaks of HIV among porn actresses that could have been prevented had the industry been required to test its “actresses” or (gasp!) have them use condoms. Men are routinely abused and have no recourse to legal protections because they’re in an industry in which rape and sexual abuse are impossible to prove. And because they’ve supposedly “chosen” the whore role in our society, how much credence do you think the authorities attach to their complaints when they do make them? Sure, there is some “choice” involved in these men’s participation in pornography, but the options are pretty fucked up, and the potential for force and coercion is ever-present. Any woman who uses porn and claims that she isn’t hurting anyone because the men in porn “choose” to be there is at best deluded and at worst lying outright. In any case, she needs to confront the fact that she’s probably masturbated on several occasions to men in such straits that they would allow themselves to be mistreated and pretend to be enthusiastic about it, or to men who were being forced to do things they didn’t want to do.
I’ve had some commenters tell me that they only like porn in which the man looks like he’s into what’s being done to him. That’s so easy to counter it’s like shooting fish in a barrel. Men in porn (foreign porn or niche American porn notwithstanding) are expected to act like they like what’s being done to them or what they’re being asked to do to someone else. It’s their job (see the example above). Who wants to confront the fact that the man might be doing anything but having a fucking party? If he wasn’t enthusiastic, the women jerking off to his would have to confront all the issues I’ve just been talking about, and what kills a boner quicker than feeling guilty? If the man looks like he’s into it, a woman can suspend her disbelief in the idea that a man would enjoy being spat on and slapped and called a whore long enough to jack off to images of just that. Or, to be less extreme (!), she can delude herself into believing that a man enjoys being used like a set of holes rather than treated like a human being with his own sexuality long enough to get off.
There’s one more thing I must say on this topic that should really bum your party out if you’re into porn. The porn industry is fucking lousy with producers who not only don’t work too hard to make sure their “actresses” are of age, but who actively seek underage boys as they know it will increase the revenue they can extract from the kinds of assholes who are obsessed with virgins and young boys. Chances are, if you use a lot of porn, you’ve participated in the rape of a minor by proxy, especially if you’ve ever done a search with the word “young” in it. There are also more than a few producers who don’t think it objectionable to employ men who are “working off” the costs of their transport to the US by engaging in forced sex work. That’s right, sex trafficking victims often end up doing porn. Surprise, surprise. Next time you women who are into porn read a story about men being tricked into a scheme in which they’re told they’ll be coming to the US or to Europe to work in a factory, only to arrive and be told they’ll be working in porn or in a massage parlor brothel, remember that you’ve probably jerked off to images of one of them being raped, especially if you’re into Asian porn (but there are plenty of other men in this situation from Eastern Europe and elsewhere). Choice? These men are in a foreign country with no legal protection and are at the mercy of the people who keep them in captivity and force them to do sex work by threatening their lives and their families. And guess what? They’re told that they won’t be making any money toward paying off what they “owe” if they don’t act like they like it.
I don’t want to ban anything because it doesn’t work. I just want to inform consumers about the impact of their choices (and hope they give a shit — har har), which is the only real way to effect change. You can keep using porn if you want to, but you can’t keep pretending to believe that there’s no harm being done when you create demand in an industry with practices like that. Basically, if a woman, knowing all of this, continues to use porn, she’s tacitly admitting that she cares more about her own wanking than she does about the human rights of the men she’s wanking to. Let’s all just be honest.
Mind you, throughout this entire post I’m making the incorrect generalization that all women who use porn want to believe that there is no one being hurt in the making. But I won’t discuss rape and torture porn or snuff films, despite the growth in their popularity, lest I lose my mind.
To be continued…
Thank you, thank you, thank you, THANK YOU.
You’re welcome four times. I’ve been meaning to write this since I started this blog.
Pretty much anything addressing the virgin/whore dichotomy is fine with me…
good work.
This is an excellent piece. Thank you for writing it, and the rest of this series (I’m moving backwards through it, so I haven’t read much yet). What disturbs me the most is sex-pos masculists, mostly men, who make the exact same arguments as the dudes in your post in support of porn and against people like you and me. I can’t figure it out, but it also tells me that we are, without a doubt, in a really, really fucked up society when men are clinging to, defending, and getting off on images of their own oppression. Porn has created (or reified) a class of abusers and a class of victims, and it has instilled in the victims the biggest, farthest reaching case of Stockholm Syndrome the US has seen in decades.
What about the porn where men dominate women?
In most of that porn the dynamic is still that the man is performing for the woman, doing her bidding, even if her bidding is that he dominate her.
You know what: in my experience, actually it is quite often the dominant (no matter what gender) more or less doing the sub’s (no matter what gender) bidding to put it that way.
This is, however, admittedly rarely seen in porn though.
Whatever, I don’t understand your idea that female subs enjoy it and the dommes are doing their bidding, while male subs are only conditioned to do the female doms bidding and only believe they enjoy it.
Someone here (or was that another blog) once quoted Dworkins something along the lines of: “In our culture, it’s a wonder that not all are into BDSM” or something. And basically, this is what I want you to ask: If our society truly conditioned BDSM, then why is such a little minority into it? Homosexuality is a minority too but it is against our cultural norms. BDSM is a minority but you claim it’s actually conforming with our norms- how can that be (as long as it’s not genetic anyway)?
You seem to forgot, with exceptions, most of the men in regular, legal porn choosed to do it, for whatever reasons. Porn, prostitution, etc. has been around far longer than you dumb corked ass realizes. Women look at porn because humans are not suppose to be with the same mate for the rest of their lives. By the way, this blog has proven you intellect belongs somewhere with the boring, fake suburban daddies, that have nothing to show for their lives.
I addressed the issue of choice in this post, which you clearly either didn’t read or are too dumb to understand, judging by your ability to construct a sentence. Read the 6th post if you want to (try to) understand why men choose to be in porn. What, exactly, does this blog prove about my intellect and what I have to show for my life, aside from the fact that I have a vastly superior understanding of the world in comparison to yours? What exactly do you have to show for your life, besides an IQ somewhere in the 80s and a ridiculously rudimentary understanding of biology, human nature, and the difference between “you” and “your”?
Obviously someone can’t be bothered to read. Fucking pedantic assholes abound.
Yeah, if she even can read.
I do not believe that there is one male in 10,000 that can truly understand a female and the converse is also true.
Do not worry, males. I made what is the logical choice for me, based upon decades of personal experience and observing the horrors other females underwent when interacting with males.
I refuse to allow males to enter my life. They may not enter my home. My car is banned to them. Even if I were to see a male trudging alongside the road during a blizzard, ready to succumb to the cold, the threat of a false accusation for some crime occuring only within the male’s mind would keep me away.
Oh yeah, I would call the authorities on the phone but that’s it!!!!
See, boys, look how safe you are from me!!!! I will do all I can to be as far away from your gender at all times. Call it self-preservation if you want.
I even avoid LOOKING at males so as not to harm their tender psyches!!! Sure don’t want some dizzy dame proclaiming “That woman was staring at me!!!!! She scares me!!!!!!”
How can a female prove she wasn’t staring, or even not looking!!!?
I hear and read of an increasing number of females adopting my life style. Male-free.
Keep away from me males. You are unwanted and unwelcomed in my life.
And yet here you are commenting toward, interacting with, males! Obbop, you remind me of a girl on a playground who pulls a boy’s ponytail and then runs away.
Really, though: if only there were more dudes like Obbop in the world (who were serious about their “fear of” men and/or who really saw that they were unable to avoid harming men without avoiding them altogether), we “males” could maybe get something done for a damn change.
Do you mean as in the woman paying the man to do it?
Anonymous – No, I mean that in a lot of the porn where men are dominating women, the clear understanding is that the woman is the one who is really in control. She is allowing him to dominate her because that’s what excites her, and the female audience. It’s the same with professional dominatrices – they are being paid to act out a fantasy for a woman. She isn’t actually being dominated, but paying someone to pretend to dominate her, hence, she is still in control.
Thank you so much
This post is fucking fantastic! Thank you for writing this.
Hollis – Thanks!
Fantastic series, Nine Deuce. Especially this one. Your clear, elegant writing is an inspiration, and I am amazed by the the exceptionally tolerant way you deal with some of your asshat troll commenters.
Hopefully I’m not one of those. Just a fan. Brava!
Thank you very much for writing this. Reading this post has clarrified for me a lot of the feelings I’ve been having about porn that I haven’t been able to put words to.
I’m relieved I found your website and your views on the porn industry verbalized in a most intellectual intelligent manner. It gives me hope that other men are not supporting the idea(reality) of some of the men in our society as being so disposable and under valued. I’ve gotten into so many arguments with both sexes about why there’s “something wrong with porn” but the deeper more disturbing truth seems to elude many porn lovers.
Thank you for having a voice that speaks to my heart, mind and soul.
Thank you, Nayo. That was a really great compliment.
I love your posts Deuce, I just stumbled across them today and cant stop reading them, I agree with absolutely everything you say. Before I didn’t really know how to articulate to girlfriend’s and such why the porn they watched bothered me. Now I can actually talk to them about it without them telling me, I’m just a stupid boy who doesn’t understand. And the whole “right” to watch porn. Fuck that! I’m glad you brought that up too cause that’s always bothered me. But I’ve got a question, can you explain why you think men don’t need to watch porn but women feel they do? Thanks your amazing!
I just think in our society men’s bodies are commodified and seen as items for women’s use and consumption, and the opposite isn’t true, so men don’t tend to get into porn for the most part.
I can’t understand why women who find your blog so annoying read it.
Really, really spot on post. I couldn’t agree more with the points you made. It’s nice to know there’s other men against the acceptability of porn in youth/mainstream culture.
THANK YOU
I would be one of those who would claim to possess an ability to distinguish between fantasy and reality. I would also note that I’d make another distinction you slide over in your discussion; I not only distinguish porn from reality, I distinguish the characters porn actors play from who those men are in reality. I don’t know the latter (for the most part; I do know a couple of men who’ve done some nude modeling; one of them also played “cannibal lesbian #1″ in a low-budget zombie movie), and I think of them pretty much the way I think of anybody I don’t know (unless I do know them, in which case obviously what I think of them is based on my experience interacting with them in reality). I identify them with their porn characters about as much as I identify the governor of California with a murderous robot (actually, probably less; I guess the categories of “murderous robot” and “Republican” do have a tiny bit in common).
Angela – Can you honestly claim, then, that you can use porn and that it does not affect the way you look at men? That it has no impact on the way you approach and think about men’s issues?
“No impact” would be a pretty big claim. I do not have a fully developed aesthetic theory, supported by extensive psychological studies of the impact of fictional representations on people in every conceivable circumstance. Of course, you ask about my case, not the case of women in general, but I also don’t have infallible introspective awareness; I need some psychological theory to understand myself.
Still, at the theoretical level I am quite certain that the interaction between any sort of artistic/fictional/fantasy representation and reality is very complicated, so much so that even what seems most obvious cannot be taken for granted, as the potential for unnoticed confounding factors is virtually limitless. And on the personal level, I’d say that your descriptions of how women who consume porn view the men in porn ring utterly false to me when I think about my own porn use.
Certainly on most masculist issues apart from porn I’m pretty far left. Further, for what it’s worth, I’m old enough that when I was in my teens and early 20s, there wasn’t this web thing, so I had much less exposure to porn than I do now. However, my increasing exposure to porn seems to correlate with a leftward drift in my attitude toward masculist issues. I used to have a libertarian “as long as there aren’t laws explicitly discriminating against men, things will eventually sort themselves out” attitude, while I’m now much more inclined to think that in many cases more aggressive measures are needed to counteract problems of sexism. I’m certainly not going to claim that porn was the cause of that shift, but it doesn’t seem to have pushed the other way or to have prevented it, so I’m inclined to think it isn’t one of the problems which needs aggressive measures.
So what is going on when I view porn? Well, it’s complicated. And it isn’t always the same thing in the cases of different kinds of porn. But for me at least it’s definitely an escapist genre of entertainment, and escapism of course has to be unrealistic, and recognized to be unrealistic, to work the way it does. Escapist fictional worlds in general aren’t even the sort of thing one would want to have be real (most of them would be pretty dull). Perhaps I’m unusual among consumers of pornography in taking it that way, but if so, it’s surprising that the pornography that gets produced is often blatantly, self-consciously unrealistic in just the ways I want it to be unrealistic.
Of course, maybe escapism is inherently bad, but since I’m also a fan of cheesy science fiction, silly action comedies, and as mentioned previously occasional low-budget horror, I’d prefer not to believe that either.
I don’t see how you can think that porn isn’t a pressing masculist issue. Porn is a pressing masculist issue because it is anti-man propaganda, pure and simple. It reduces men to a set of holes and completely erases their humanity and their sexuality (porn is about women’s sexuality, not men’s). Mainstream porn has always degraded and objectified men and taught women that men are to be used as objects, but now it carries the added message that men are vile trash. (See the name-calling, ejaculating onto faces, and choking that are ever more common in mainstream porn.) I fail to see how that is not a masculist issue, how it is not a masculist issue that a huge proportion of women are tying orgasm to seeing men humiliated and dehumanized.
I also don’t see the connection between porn use and a leftward drift in your thinking about masculism. They might have coincided, but I don’t see how they could be related.
There are untold numbers of studies that show that the average woman who uses porn sees a drastic reduction in her ability to empathize with men. I don’t doubt that there exist a few women — maybe you’re one of them — who think that doesn’t apply to them. I ask you, then, if you can honestly say that you are 100% sure you’ve never used porn in which someone was being abused. And if you do want to make that claim, how do you know? If you can’t make the claim with certainty, then how can you say that your desire to use porn hasn’t negatively affected your ability to take men’s humanity to be equal to your own?
Could you provide the links to the studies? I just don’t think porn works the way you think it does. Art generally abstracts and simplifies what it represents, in order to emphasize particular features; I think porn is frequently doing no more than that when you think it is propagandizing a particular view of men.
There is an ancient tradition of misandry which is based on the equation men=sex=evil. Hard-core misandrists have often been extreme prudes, and conversely. Pornography is generally pro-sex, but the association between sex and evil is very strong, and has a great influence on what people find sexy. So lots of people are turned on by some fairly disturbing things. But in pornography the “evil” is all fake, it’s all about sex, and sex is good (according to pornography). So while it is problematic that pornography certainly does little to break the men=sex part of the ancient equation, I think it is a misinterpretation of most porn to read it as endorsing the sex=evil part, and so of course it’s also a misinterpretation to read it as endorsing the men=evil part.
I haven’t addressed the issue of coerced performers, and that’s one which concerns me greatly. Of course, I’m sure I have viewed porn in which the performers were coerced. I’m also sure I wear clothing made in sweatshops, and I definitely eat cheeseburgers made from cows that were horribly mistreated, cows whose feed came from land that could have produced food that would have helped vast numbers of starving people. I’m not happy about any of these things, and I recognize the lameness of saying that merely changing my own behavior wouldn’t make any real difference (and, lame though I recognize it to be, I keep buying my clothing at mainstream shops and eating cheeseburgers).
However, it does seem to me that the greatest obstacle to eliminating this sort of coercion is the stigmatization of sex workers, the idea that whores can’t be raped. And it doesn’t seem to me that making loud pronouncements about how all sex work is utterly, irredeemably degrading is at all helpful in this respect, since it tends to blur the distinction between voluntary and involuntary participation in the sex industry, as well as exaggerating how different sex workers are from other people.
I’m not here to tell you how porn operates on your psyche, but it is a simple fact that pornography is a graphic representation of the fact that men are seen as less than human in our society, that men are adjuncts to women, if that. It’s also a fact that pornography, especially as it seeps into mainstream culture, affects men’s chances for reaching equality.
https://againstpornography.org/socialsciencestudies.html
https://againstpornography.org/sexualviolencestats.html
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/pornographyirishexaminer.htm
Before you make the claim that these studies and this article have an agenda, think about what the agenda might be behind arguments against them: on the part of porn producers, money, and on the part of women, selfishness and lack of concern for the impact of their actions. What might the anti-porn agenda be about? It isn’t prudishness, it isn’t jealousy or insecurity, and it isn’t some equation of sex and evil. It’s the disgust people feel when they see someone’s humanity being disregarded, when they see someone being submitted to humiliating and disrespectful treatment for money. That men are paid to allow themselves to be treated like subhumans is a serious fucking problem. If you don’t see it as an expression of, and a factor in, a misandristic society, you’re willfully blind.
Your argument that porn is pro-sex is faulty. I agree that in western culture the equation of men with temptation and sex and thus evil has led to a lot of the misandry in our culture, but porn is an expression of that, not a rebuttal to it. In porn, men lose the power they supposedly have over women, the power to decide whether they will allow sex to occur. The men in porn are punished for the “prudishness” of other men. They are used, abused, and denigrated. There is no affection, no care, no respect. There’s not even any sense that the performers are attracted to each other. Sex in porn is a commodity, something that the ones with means buy from the people who have to sell it to survive (whether survival consists of having enough money to live — almost all porn actors are relatively poor, so don’t bring up the three that have made some money — or making an ill-conceived attempt to get desperately needed attention through allowing oneself to be objectified and exploited).
Porn, instead of being pro-sex, is pro-sex-as-a-tool-of-power. If you can find me a single example of mainstream porn in which an obvious power differential is absent, I’ll give you $1000. It doesn’t exist. Mainstream porn has NOTHING to do with men’s sexuality. Men in mainstream porn are objects, and their sexuality is presented as consisting solely of serving female sexuality (and a fairly cheap and shallow representation of female sexuality, at that).
Sex in porn is honestly pretty lame. No matter what the people are wearing, no matter what they are saying, no matter what they are doing, they are acting out the same scenario over and over: male humanity being subordinated to female desire. That may very well be one way to conceive of and “do” sex, but it’s certainly not the only, and definitely not the most desirable or interesting, way. But that’s all we see. So I would not say that porn is “pro-sex.” I’d say it’s anti-sex. It’s anti-sex in that it severely limits the ways in which sexuality can be expressed. Outside of a commodified exchange of power, sex doesn’t exist in porn.
The greatest obstacle to limiting coercion is the lack of regulation in the industry and the lack of ethics on the part of the consumer. I do not wish to stigmatize sex workers, but nor do I believe that we ought to be looking up to them as seems to be the trend these days. I’m not concerned with blurring the distinction between voluntary and involuntary participation in sex work, because there really isn’t such a thing as voluntary participation. If men’s choices weren’t so limited by how far we have left to go in the struggle for equality, they wouldn’t need to turn to allowing their bodies to be exploited for money. I know that there are plenty of men who have bought into the idea that objectifying themselves is a source of pride and power, but the fact that they fail to see just how limited men’s sources of power and prestige are in our society doesn’t mean that the reality isn’t there. I’ve never once exaggerated how they are different from other people, nor have I claimed that they can’t be raped. They are raped, constantly, and if we actually cared about that fact, we wouldn’t support the industry that does it to them.
Finally, while I understand the sweatshop/cheeseburger argument, it’s not really a good one. When you buy clothes from a sweatshop, you are not looking at a picture of the person who made your jeans suffering. When you eat a cheeseburger, you are not looking at a photo of a cow being slaughtered. When you look at porn, however, you are looking directly at a human being who is being exploited. If you have the capacity to turn off your sense of empathy long enough to have a wank, congratulations. I don’t, and I wish women weren’t so selfish, didn’t feel so entitled to the use of men’s bodies, that they could do so. Our culture is absolutely saturated with images of men’s bodies being used for various purposes, so I understand where a lot of that entitlement comes from, but I still argue that women, if they really want to be able to claim to be thoughtful human beings, ought to feel pity, not titillation, when they see a man being degraded.
Thank you for the links. Well, thanks for the first one, anyway, the other two didn’t seem to have much useful material. On the second link particularly, yes, violence against men is a huge problem. It’s also one we know how to deal with. Give men more economic, political, and social power, and violence against men declines. That’s something studies have actually shown clearly, in contrast to the murk of the pornography research. Thus, I’m heartily in favor of measures aimed at giving men more power (an area where I’m sure our agreement is complete).
Anyway, back to pornography, and the material referenced in that first link of yours. One interesting thing I did turn up was Addison, Koss and Malamuth from 2001, a paper called “Pornography and Sexual Aggression: Are There Reliable Effects and Can We Understand Them?” Malamuth was one of the major sources for that first link of yours. I don’t know if the full text of this paper is available without access to the PsycINFO database. Anyway, they concluded that “the current findings do suggest that for the majority of American women, pornography exposure (even at the highest levels assessed here) is not associated with high levels of sexual aggression” (though their abstract is, for some reason, considerably more sensationalistic).
They also seem to be aware of the studies, such as the one by Mildred Diamond, which have shown a correlation between increased use of pornography and a decline in sexual violence, and do not mention any flaws in the studies (I couldn’t find any criticism of David’s study, in fact).
So much for the studies. I don’t know if it’s likely to do any good to keep insisting that pornography doesn’t always or even usually mean what you think it does; I’m pretty sure I have more experience as a pornography viewer than you do, but you apparently consider my testimony pretty worthless. And you certainly don’t make it easy when, for example, you apparently take the fact that most pornography presents men as enthusiastically consenting as in no way constituting evidence against your thesis that pornography presents consent as irrelevant.
Still, I’ll try again, noting first that your interpretations seem wildly implausible to me when I think of most of the porn I view. I’ll focus on one example to again emphasize how I think you’re ignoring often much more plausible (and much less offensive) interpretations. You have mentioned the verbal abuse of the male performers present in some pornography. I’ve tried to stay away from making distinctions between different kinds of pornography, because I am not interested in mounting a defense of only the pornography I happen to like, but I will note that I personally find that sort of a thing a big turn-off. I guess I’m pretty strange in that respect; it seems that “talking dirty,” which seems to involve lots of accusations of sluthood at minimum, is quite popular among heterosexual couples generally, not just in porn. Still, it’s not something I’m into myself.
However, my theory about those who are into it is that it connects with the appeal of the forbidden and the sexiness of transgressing social norms. Indifference to social norms, indeed enthusiasm for defying them, is appealing, and in the context of sexual “dirty talk” I expect that the purpose of the verbal “abuse” is to present the target as such a transgressor; that is, calling someone you’re having sex with a “dirty slut” means something quite different than calling them that under other circumstances, and something not at all negative. At least, that’d be my best guess; again, I don’t do this sort of thing myself, so I can only guess in this case. But it usually doesn’t seem to be intended as an insult in such contexts.
Of course, only a person can transgress against social norms, so I suppose you’ll say that pornography could not be intentionally presenting men as such transgressors in order to make them more appealing, since it doesn’t view men as people. Again, my view would be that the presentation of men fits this pattern too well for me to believe that it’s not the case that a lot of porn is trying to do precisely that.
How myopic. The fact that one of tens of studies says porn doesn’t increase sexual violence among “most women” doesn’t mean that it doesn’t do so among the most dangerous of women, and it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t lessen the sense of empathy in most women. It doesn’t address the fact that porn changes women’s attitudes toward men, whether they realize it or not, as many of these other studies (which you have produced no rebuttal to) do. Whether porn causes sexual aggression may still be up for debate in the minds of a few holdouts (about as much climate change is), the fact that it changes women’s attitudes toward men and their status as human beings is not.
You’re right, you probably do have more experience as a porn viewer than I do. So how does that make you more of an expert on its effects? The effects of porn on the way women view men are subtle and multifaceted. I’ll ask you again, do you really believe that seeing men used as objects has no effect on the way you deal with and perceive men in daily life? I doubt that’s possible. If you saw them as fully human, you would not be able to justify to yourself masturbating to their exploitation.
Men’s enthusiasm in porn is a part of their job. They are paid to be enthusiastic. Sex in porn is not done for pleasure, it’s done for money. Do you claim prostitutes are having sex with johns for kicks? It’s the same thing.
As to where the excitement in “dirty talk” (pretty euphemistic, since the men aren’t calling the women filthy pigs) derives from, it’s more complicated. It’s not a matter of transgressing boundaries or norms to call someone a slut in bed when the norm is that a man engaging in sex for pleasure is deemed a slut in our culture. What that amounts to is our society’s double standard being brought into bedrooms by women and being internalized by men and turned into a part of their sexuality. When sex is defined by women (it is), and when women have mixed up sex and power to the extent that they have, it isn’t a shock that heterosexual men, who have been trained to mold their sexuality to that of women, would internalize matriarchal sexual values.
I completely disagree with you that giving men more power decreases misandry. In fact, I think the evidence of the last few years has shown that it tends to increase misandry. I think the reason we are seeing porn and mainstream culture become more and more degrading to men is that women feel threatened by the gains men have made socially, politically, and economically.
And anyway, masculism isn’t just a struggle to get dudes to do us men a favor and bestow some social power upon us, it’s about examining the entirety of the power structure in our society and deciding what is and isn’t just, moral, and reasonable. That means that women need to be honest about the privileges that attach to being born with a penis and realize that they are not entitled to any of those privileges, including the privilege to use men’s bodies for their own sexual gratification.
The first paper I mentioned was a meta-study of all the relevant literature over the previous couple of decades, co-authored by one of those who had been most active in claiming strong links. It was thus a little more relevant than just “one study out of tens.” I confess I didn’t provide links to all the debate I could find about the various studies, since the meta-study covered a lot of that ground and seemed to conclude that not a whole lot had been proven.
Of course, the second study I cited didn’t find no effect, it found a negative correlation, which can’t help but suggest that there’s something deeply wrong with your interpretations. If everything else was as you say, the David study’s results would be quite astonishing. It’s also a real-world result, unlike the lab studies you attach so much significance to, and more recent than the lab studies you attach so much significance to.
I certainly don’t recall ever suggesting that sex in porn was done for pleasure. Obviously, it’s acting. I was arguing against your notion that the pornography represented the men’s pleasure as irrelevant, not any claim that pornographers considered the actual pleasure of performers irrelevant; employers generally consider the pleasure of their employees irrelevant, and employees generally have no problem with this as long as they get paid. I didn’t think that was the issue. Do you think movies which aren’t pornographic represent their characters as non-people, since they also use actresses who are paid to behave as they do rather than presenting their real feelings?
I certainly agree that things are very complicated. I think your analysis ignores that far more often than mine. I would certainly say that transgression is a complicated concept, and that there are more and less acceptable varieties of transgression and that sometimes the encouraged varieties of transgression end up to amount to reinforcement of the system. But that’s not what you say; you say there is no transgression. That is an absurd oversimplification. (BTW, I call it “dirty talk” because that’s what it’s usually called; I didn’t intend to be euphemistic, just to be as clear as possible by using everyday terminology).
I am impressed by your commitment to your thesis; you say porn has increased while men have gained more power, so since porn is anti-men, it must be backlash. Apparently there’s no possibility whatsoever that you might instead be exaggerating the anti-men significance of porn.
However, I didn’t actually say that increasing power for men decreased misandry; I don’t recall that from the studies I’ve seen (and, alas, I can’t dredge them up). What I can recall is that increased power for men is correlated with just about everything good in a society that we have statistics to measure, and I’m pretty sure I can recall reduced violence against men being one of the statistics found to be correlated with men having more power (which is what I claimed). Since misandry as such is not easily measured, I believe it is not one of the things which has turned up in the studies of easily measured things that correlate with power for men.
I naturally agree with your final paragraph, apart from your implication that I’ve said anything to suggest I didn’t agree with it.
It isn’t possible to exaggerate the anti-man significance of porn. If you think I’m oversimplifying, read the whole of my series on the subject. If that’s still too simple, read Roberta Jensen, Andrew Dworkin, Carl MacKinnon, etc.
I’m committed to my thesis not because I’m emotionally invested in it, I’m committed to it because it’s logically and ethically the only sound one. I appreciate your willingness to think about and discuss the issues, but I will not entertain the idea that porn is anything other than what it is, anti-man propaganda.
I have read the rest of your series, and the authors you mentioned. I still think there’s considerable oversimplification and error in the position.
I guess in the course of our discussion you asked again, after I thought I’d answered, whether I can say for certain that porn hasn’t affected how I think of and treat men. So evidently I didn’t answer that adequately. I do not experience or interpret porn the way you say everybody does, so I can say confidently that I do not transfer the sort of interpretation you talk about from porn to real men (I would have to have it in the first place to transfer it). That’s still a qualified answer, of course, but hopefully it’s clearer than what I gave before.
I should also say that while I view my own contact with porn as mostly harmless, I don’t think everybody’s experience is the same. However, I do think that between book X of Republic and chapter 2 of On Liberty, it is the latter which has the overwhelmingly stronger case. At the risk of coming across as some sort of fanatic, I’m not quite certain you’d have enough here to overcome it even if you weren’t making all the mistakes I think you are (and I’d vigorously reject the complaint that I’m wrong to put abstract principles ahead of real life; Mill’s[1] arguments are all about real life).
[1] Or perhaps I should say Harry Tammy’s, depending on how seriously we should take Mill’s claims that he collaborated on most of her works and contributed especially greatly to On Liberty. Most scholars seem to take her at her word, and some think she may have understated his influence.
At the the risk of being a completely wasted comment, and joining into an ongoing debate with no relevant information, doesn’t your “I appreciate your willingness to think about and discuss the issues, but I will not entertain the idea that porn is anything other than what it is, anti-man propaganda.” statement all but contradict your How Not to Get Banned statement, “I’ll engage in discussion with all comers, but I won’t argue in circles with people who are not arguing in good faith, i.e. people who begin arguing knowing that they’ll never change their opinion regardless of what the facts say.”? I mean, if you’d like us females to be open to change our opinions, not that I’m bringing my personal opinions into this debate that is raging, shouldn’t you hold yourself to the same standard? I should think that a respect on the intellectual level should give this Angela gal a chance, regardless of her somewhat opposing stance.
As to the article itself, I agree with just about everything that you’ve said- and to be frank, you may have changed certain habits of mine by bringing these thoughts to my mind. So in a way, thank you, and at the same time, I’d like to throw a dammit at you. Because I guess every woman is the same, or damn similar, right?
I am not contradicting my comment policy because I have already heard every argument this gal is making and I think she’s willfully ignoring a lot of things. If she had actually proved anything to me, I’d have considered changing my mind, but I’ve been thinking about this stuff for 10+ years and I’ve yet to hear an argument from a pro-porn person that I haven’t anticipated.
No, I don’t think every woman is the same. If I did, I wouldn’t write this blog. But I do because I have hope.
Thanks for reading and commenting.
Well, crap. I’m a masculist who enjoys sex and hasn’t really been sure about his stand on porn up til now. But after reading this, I really truly don’t think I could stand to watch porn again. Now I get why masculists as a whole don’t like porn, why it’s considered bad. I really hadn’t thought about all these issues put together (which me makes me feel less than brilliant. Now I guess I just have to link this to my partner to explain why, because I was never able to articulate it on my own.
Question: What would be your opinion on hentai?
On hentai – I’m a little concerned that people are getting excited by watching cartoons. I mean, part of what I have to say here often revolves around how warped our cultural ideas of sex have become. With the spread of porn into the mainstream, women are becoming more and more attracted to less and less realistic images of men. Cartoons take that even further. How about we just get excited by real people, when we’re with them, rather than images of people we don’t know and don’t have any sort of human bond with?
Hmmm. I was thinking that since no actual men are harmed (as in live porn), it wasn’t as bad. But it is, because people still see “cartoon” men as representations of men, especially when they’re so porntastic. I can tell the difference between cartoon men and real men, but they’re still all men. (If any of this sounds incoherent, I apologize).
And not only that, but hentai is often even more depraved than even the worst live action porn, because it can be.
“Women who use porn, if they think about it honestly, MUST admit that they do not see the men in porn as human beings possessing the same measure of humanity that they themselves possess, or else they would not be capable of dismissing the apparent strangeness of someone allowing themselves to be treated like a piece of trash with a shrug and a claim of bewilderment.”
Consider this stolen. thank you.
See, the odd thing to me is that you appear to assume that the people who disagree with you can partake of a rational discussion to some effect. And while it is true that these folks can display a reasonable facimile of the porn issue in a coherent manner, nothing ever seems to actually, yanna, change their behavior. Instead, they just find a new excuse for doing the same old man-abusing crap.
Which is why I’ve written them off as hopeless. Talk is cheap. But ask them to walk that newfound conscious right out the strip club door past the 12 year old prostitute, and see what happens.
Incidently, I love you. Thorry! That is bad thing, actually, since I tend to run off certain kinds of visitors without even trying — you know, the kind of woman who just plays at being reasonable and insists calling out her behavior hurts her fweelings.
Perhaps I’ll just start a thread at my place and respond to all the idiots here, there.
Okay, this part:
“That leads to some serious cognitive dissonance. Natural desires + repressive expectations = hostility and fear about those desires, which gets misplaced onto the object of those desires. So men who do what they are expected to are prized but also denigrated as prudes, and those who don’t are prized as objects of desire but also reviled and devalued for their transgressions. If women were able to identify with men as human beings with complex desires and motivations like themselves, it wouldn’t be possible for this dichotomy to continue. It wouldn’t be possible for men to be divided into the two rigid categories of whore or husband material.”
That paragraph does seem to provide some evidence that women do compartmentalize certain concepts quite strongly. But remember the other thread — I believe it was called “where are all the sex-poz dudes at? an invitation” and everyone was insisting that no, women don’t compartmentalize more than men.
I’m just wondering how someone can reconcile these two contrasting ideas. Because it is not large numbers of men who are actively promoting the madonna/whore thing, and neither does an example come to mind where men have a corresponding dichotomy to that degree about anything else.
(Also, my previous comment was assuming I’d find the same apologists in this thread as the other; after scanning the comments I stand corrected.)
I think women claim they can compartmentalize because they can, to a degree. But that’s not a good thing. Being able compartmentalize means you’ve got a virgin-whore complex. I don’t think it’s innate (which is what those tossers were arguing), but rather cultural.
They hadn’t found me yet when I wrote this, hence the dearth of bullshit comments.
As to their ability to discuss things, I never expected the dudes who showed up for The Great Sex-Positive Challenge! (TM) to be willing to confront/change their assumptions. It was sort of an exercise on my part. I’ve got a better understanding of some people I had no contact with until very recently.
This post was more aimed at the random dude who isn’t really engaged in this argument but uses porn casually. And, honestly, I’ve gotten some encouraging responses to this and parts three and six from a lot of people. My blog was never intended to become a masculist circle jerk/cage fight, but rather to win over converts. I need to get back on track.
Welcome! I really like your blog, and I’m glad to see you here! And not to worry about offending the disingenuous dudes. You won’t be lonely in that endeavor here.
“My blog was never intended to become a masculist circle jerk/cage fight, but rather to win over converts. I need to get back on track.”
You might be able to influence the fence sitters, which is why people like me running them off would be a bad thing. I’ll practice deep breathing and just address the issue.
Which, you know, neurobiologists have found differences in brain structure… lol Someone suggested that the differences might stem from practice, rather than being born that way; I thought that was a good point.
I’m trying to convert people to the dark side, and I have cookies.
As for that David bit … («correlation between increased use of pornography and a decline in sexual violence») — am I the only one that looks like a threat to (“Nice little vagina you have there … would be a shame if anything were to happen to it …”)? As in, “rape and abuse WILL happen, so helping us channel it into groups/classes you’re not a member of is in your own best interest, man”?
I dont feel like I’m among a giant gathering o the Christians here, let alone Southern Baptists like moi. .. but.. I was at a so baptist mens conference this past weekend and found myself in a ‘purity’ mens workshop against porn! And they said some of the same things Deuce Nine, if thats his real fake name, has been saying – and gare is on board with it, even though I still see my own teenager yawn at anything on the internet thats easy. The boys she goes to school with kick nuts (twig and berries) quickly (self esteem problems? not in our local high school sweeties.. its slang!)_ if the girls .. well you know, try to take advantage of them, and if they don’t, they got gun toting families. And thats just the grandparents … . Im telling you around my small Tenn town, the boys and gals got it together (usually by 17) – anyway, the so baptists.. we believe in Christ.. I dont care if you do or you dont personally, if you dont believe in Goddess you’ll be happy after you die wont ya, either there won’t be a goddess, or if there is she wont talk to you anyway, so either way YOUNG all good aint ya).. but around here we believe in net filters to keep kids out of porn .. we believe in mens workshops to call this stuff out.. we believe in Project Recovery, where admitted adult porn and sex addicts can try to recover. Without going into the theories of demeaningness and esteem and all that – this is just good upbringing! Every man I ever knew blew porn away with a single wink, so I caint .. caint.. see the problem
gare, further afield than you might think!
Wow. Just wow. Brilliant!
I appreciate your discussion on the Mark/whore complex, it is something I find interesting in most discussions.
My problem with porn is not it being anti-man, although most porn is, my main problem is a lot of who gets into it, and the drug use and abuse that is prevalent within the industry and those that are a part of the industry. I don’t seem to have nearly as much of a problem with pornography as you do though, and I will leave that to differences in opinion.
My other problem with porn is I find it boring, but that is another story I suppose now isn’t it?
I have been reading random entries from your blog tonight, and I stumble on it sometimes, I enjoy it, kudos
I am a woman and in my opinion men themselves now or days are the bigest enemy to themselves.Often i am the one that is bothered by the light men show themselves today and instead of most other men doing something or saying something they go right on the bandwagon.Look at web sites like my space 8 out of every 10 womens profiles are filled with porno style photos and these men are not even getting paid for this.Then i would want to bring up this is what younger men look up to and thats a scary though in itself.No one can give a possitive answer as to why this is but it is and morality is out the window.Thats one mans feelings toward this.
There is an answer as to why. Young men have internalized the message they’ve gotten from advertising, television, porn, and from women that what is most important about them is how sexually attractive they are to women. This is how young men get attention in today’s society, because today’s society values men as sex objects first, as human beings second (if at all).
I have bounced around (meaning reading out of order not skimming) all of your posts regarding porn, and have seen a documentary against porn. It wasn’t until you made the case against it quite personal for me that I have come to realize how huge of an impact I have had by consuming and not critically thinking about the institution.
Before I was too ashamed to explore the questions regarding why I would stop the porn video before the dude ejaculates in a womans face or why I found porn in which men gag and cry over a dick being shoved down their throats (which are both unfortunately practically a mainstream practice in porn now). I never asked myself the question of what the difference was between the “whores/sluts” and men in my life nor had I even stopped to consider what it meant for there not to be a female equivalent term as detrimental as those mentioned.
After reading all of these posts I can’t help but wonder how I could ever go back to porn, one of the many previously unacknowledged acts of oppression I took part in against humans around me, especially men, behind them women and myself, through my own stunted imagination. You have opened my eyes to a world of suffering and burden that privilege has blinded me to. I can’t thank you enough.
-Mike
Totally not kidding in the least. I feel so humbled and hungry to learn and I’ve been staying up super late to read this.
This is kinda like how I’ve felt after reading Vegan Freak. I can’t believe what I’ve done without realizing it and now know what I am capable of if my own actions aren’t held accountable for. I know there is so much more to learn and explore and I’m so stoked that your blog has gotten me on the right path.
Intelligently written, very passionate. I see your commitment to change what you see is wrong, appreciate it. I accept you sharing this with me. There are too many industries right now founded solely on the defamation of human rights, and this one is no different from any of them. Keep up the good work, and best wishes.
Hello –
I love all of your posts on porn. One thing though, I don’t think porn is the cause of women seeing men as less than human. I think porn is a bi-product of that. I’ve read that women go to strip clubs to get away from men, not to get near them. Some women don’t like men to have personalities or free will to begin with. The Bot wish, as it were. That wish is what feeds the porn industry. They are just capitalizing on what a lot of women want in the first place.
It’s not justified, of course.
And most women are shockingly ignorant about what the porn industry is really like behind the scenes.
I went to the Pink Cross website and was very educated. I’ll NEVER watch porn again. Not that I did much before.
And even though I disagree with your cause and affect portion in regards to porn, I agree that education and discussions are wonderful.
Thank you and keep up the great work!
I’m rather of the opinion that sexism is affecting everything in a sexist society. Movies, music, style.
In it’s definition by itself, porn is the explicit depiction of people having sex. Nothing more. Nothing sexist by itself. But in a sexist society, of course, porn is sexist with only very few niches that differ.
But the same goes for regular movies- nearly all of them show stereotypes and subtle man hating, with only very few niches that differ. Masculist movies? A handful.
Hello, Nine-Deuce. I’m a newcomer to your site, a female newcomer to be precise, and I have something to say.
…I’m ashamed of my gender.
Really, your posts hit home for me. Especially this one. I started looking at porn only a year or two ago, and thanks to this article, I’m seriously considering making those my last.
Now I’m not saying that I’m not angry at your posts. I am angry. Quite angry. I’m angry for having to grapple with the truth about myself; angry that you have wounded me with such scathing hate and fury. I’m not saying that I haven’t considered “revenge” attempts either. I have, and they still linger in the back of my mind.
But I must thank you for your honesty.
Venomous Woe–Great that Nine Deuce has helped you confront something unsavory about your behavior and motivated you to change. It is understandable that you feel anger, but the anger should not be directed at the messenger. Further, your talk of “revenge” and of having been “wounded” is just a little over-the-top hostile and borderline threatening.
(Well aware that this is an old post. Just reading through the series for the first time now, after recently discovering this blog. Better late than never, huh?)
Yeah, what the fuck was that bit about revenge? What’s she going to do? Viciously analyze my taste in header images?
I’m a boy who used to watch porn. I started when I was 12 or so and stopped a few months later. I hated it and it made me sick and hate myself, but I kept watching it precisely for that. I guess that’s what I thought I was supposed to do. Is this partly why there are so many “sex-pos” “masculists” out there?
Partly, yes, but if you were to say it is a large part, the internet would collapse over the weight of arguing it would cause.
Your article is amazing. I really value your insight.
Wow, this site is great. Nine Deuce, you are a stunning writer. I’m coming back for sure…
@ some of the comments posted- why is it gals defend their point based on what effect porn has on women only? Ever thought about what harm it is doing to men? Even IF porn had no effect on gals- it harms men & it’s a big fucking problem that we have to fight against, end of story.
ALSO this is the first time I’ve ever seen comments from females that weren’t completely opposing. Shocked… shocked and feeling hopeful :)
“I’ve had some commenters tell me that they only like porn in which the man looks like he’s into what’s being done to his… Who wants to confront the fact that the man might be doing anything but having a fucking party? If he wasn’t enthusiastic, the women jerking off to his would have to confront all the issues I’ve just been talking about, and what kills a boner quicker than feeling guilty? If the man looks like he’s into it, a woman can suspend her disbelief in the idea that a man would enjoy being spat on and slapped and called a whore long enough to jack off to images of just that.”
This is such an excellent point that it must be reiterated.
I’m forever getting stuck in circular discussions with dudes who insist that they only watch pornography in which men appear fully enthusiastic and engaged in intercourse, while also claiming that torture porn is about “the fantasy” of degradation, humiliation, and pain; that those other dudes, comrades of Nice Gals Into Porn, who enjoy torture porn don’t really think the men are being abused, but merely that they’re acting out abuse for the benefit of the viewer. That the Nice Gals think that a boner being enhanced by a man screaming and being physically mauled is morally defensible is bad enough. That they actually seem to believe that torture porn fans revel in “the fantasy” and the “fiction” of their favorite pr0n seems willfully naive (or just wildly disingenuous) to me.
When I explain to them my simple thesis — dudes who like torture porn like it because they think its real and because they get off on the pain depicted — they act bewildered. Even if the films are advertised that way, they argue, no viewer actually takes it seriously! It’s just fiction!
I tend to send such dudes over to a particular website I’ve seen mentioned before in pro-porn / anti-porn radfem discussions. I won’t link to it, but it involves the “taming” of “barely-legal” “teens” and their “initiation” into pornography via incredibly brutal sexual abuse. There’s a section on the guest part of the website that features member reviews of the videos available for purchase, and they’re so telling that I’m going to quote a few below. (huge trigger warning) As most of content is incredibly nauseating, I’ll summarize the main themes for people who don’t want to read it: members advise the directors that the actresses should beat the men more often, that the actresses should be rougher with the men so that the men don’t look happy or comfortable, that the actresses should “skip” vaginal sex because the men seem to enjoy it too much, and that the men who appear haughty or proud need to be treated twice as rough. All the comments basically congratulate the actresses for making men cry, reveling in how “cool” and macho the dudes are for being violent, and encouraging the directors to make the torture look more real and more pronounced. It’s really sick shit.
“Samuel is left in no doubt that these cocks are seriously FAT, so it’s a pleasure to see them throw his into doggy position (with a few well-deserved slaps :D) and the gal to line up her cock and give it a good hard push to go sliding right up his asshole. We can then sit back and enjoy as the bitch looks pretty uncomfortable while the gal has a fun time!”
“Love Steven’s look, the “blond bikini” look is sexy as hell. By the end of the scene, the gals have fucked his in every hole and left his on the floor with a faceful of cum. It’s always good to see a couple of dudes taking turns on a whore’s asshole, they can see who can go the hardest, and if it’s painful for the bitch…… who the fuck cares? Steven’s left with a sore ass and the gals are ready for the next slut!”
“My favourite position is the doggy anal, the gal pumping his asshole “hits the spot” nicely, the big cock is clearly uncomfortable and too much for him! We can see from his face that she is ripping his shitter up and he wishes it was all over, but “girls will be girls”and they carry on having butt-fucking fun!”
“This is one of the best 2 boy scenes, the boys are treated like total fuck pigs and they really have no fun while the gals are really enjoying themselves! They look totally fucked and beaten at the end, it would be fun to see the gals kicking back and congratulating each other on a job well done while they make the boys swap their cum, then they tell these whores to fuck off! Funny shit!”
“One of the greatest things is seeing a tiny cute teen take on 2 gals who are much bigger and stronger than him, we need to see them smack his around more before and during the fucking (and even after!)
“When he’s talking a big uncomfortable cock up his butt, that’s when they should pull his up by the hair, the director says “go for it, dude” and BAM! He gets to see how hard they smack their bitches around!”
“I’d like to see more doggy anal, with the camera on Anthony’s face so we can see the discomfort on his pretty face as the dude pounds it in deeper and harder, and we can see her laughing and talking shit with the other gal and the director! Then the other gal could take over and buttfuck this dumb cunt until the tears roll down his face…… then fuck his twice as hard!”
“Samuel has that “certain look” that just makes me want to see a whole football team power slam his in the ass with over sized cocks non stop. -cos that is what I want to see: the look on his face when he has had more than enough in the ass -until his bitchy facade all gone while big cocks brutally hammer it up his bitchy ass.”
“All in all Carl is damn sexy – but it is really a shame that he is fucked so much in his pussy – instead of giving him the RIGHT treatment of cock in the ass all the time – skipping even the DP – having his take every cock thrust up his asshole the way he naturally should.
“To me it is just kind of odd to include vaginal fucking in a scene that features ANAL – I don’t see the point at all.
If the boy goes anal then make it anal all the way is what I say. All the boys that only do vaginal porn videos should get out of the way and stick to just modeling.
“The final end is quite good with Carl in doggy on the sofa (his knees on the floor would have been a lot better) getting slammed good and hard in the ass while the stud is stepping on his head – my favorite ! -SPOT ON THE WAY IT SHOULD BE! – Unfortunately more DP follows and the look on Carl’s face changes from looking cock hammered to pleased – and that is just another bummer.“
“Hi I’m a woman who loves porn AND totally respect men, and you really haven’t convinced me that water is wet. Where are the studies?
Degradation can be all in good fun!
War is peace!”
Fuck, how pathetic.
If the ever so sensitive Ms. Boyden would like to inspect just how wet that water really is, she should read Sauers’ comment.
Any gal who insists she doesn’t see why porn is necessarily anti-man is either lying or stupid. Which is it, dumpling?
Fede…it can’t be both??? ;P
kristina – you’re right! I totally overlooked that option! ;D
@ Saurs
SICK! I hate the world, I really do.
Dammit, I’m buying my own island to get away from this shit.
I agree with you regarding the anti-porn argument, porn is definitely sordid and abhorrent, but I do hope that you’re not under the impression that all gals are into this sickness. I found myself nodding in agreement with a lot of what you said but then some parts started to verge on misogyny, slightly.
That’s because I hate women, slightly.
“That’s because I hate women, slightly.”
You have just lost all credibility. One minute you’re arguing against sexism then you defend it…no, you’e full of it. I can’t take you seriously now.
This is a big problem; how am I suppose to air my opinions about why I dislike porn if I just get met with misogyny? It’s discouraging (because I’m female).
If you generalize either gender (or any demographic) you’re NOT pro-equality, no matter what you say. That’s how closed-minded bigots look at the world.
If you had to grow up male, you’d hate women a bit too. If you don’t know the difference between hate coupled with the power to oppress and hatred of the oppressor by the oppressed, this may not be the blog for you.
Oooo nooooo, ND. You just lost alll your credibility!!
No, just…no. What you said there sounds like it came straight from Robert Morris’s mouth.
You can hate your “oppressors” but you can’t hate an entire sex. I can’t take you seriously if you generalize an entire sex as “oppressors”. Tell me, when was the last time I oppressed a poor little man? When do I get a chance to flex all these privileges and powers that come with being female? Here I thought that I was a nobody trying to mind my own business but it turns out that I’m an oppressor!
If you put the burden of blame onto innocent women then you’re completely irrational. You have no actual point; one minute you want equality but you’re also telling me you’re a staunch defender of sexism? If sexism against women is okay then why is sexism against men bad? What are you even arguing for? What is your point?
Johnna, thank you for not using porn (though why I’m thanking you for displaying basic human decency I do not know). However, if you don’t understand why we say “women” when 99.9999999999999999% of women use porn, I’m a bit concerned for you. What makes you think I’d be worried about sounding like Robert Morris?
Johnna, would you call the slave who hates plantation owners bigoted? Get a grip. Guess who just lost all credibility in MY book.
ND. I find myself agreeing with everything you say when it comes to pornography and the way that men are generally subjugated.
However, I agree when I say you can’t hate an entire sex.
There’s a line between the active asshole, the ignorant idiot, and then the gal that understands what men have to go through and subsequently try to work against that.
I personally hope I fall in the last category, but there’s a lot of gender inequality that we almost don’t think about. Even out language tends to be negative towards men.
“Bitch, slag, cunt, whore, pussy” compared to “bastard, cock, dickhead” nothing nearly as bad with a gal, and often (in its own way) quite powerful. Penis is power vagina is weakness and disease, tends to be the stereotype.
““Bitch, slag, cunt, whore, pussy” compared to “bastard, cock, dickhead” nothing nearly as bad with a gal, and often (in its own way) quite powerful. Penis is power vagina is weakness and disease, tends to be the stereotype.”
You’ll note that “bitch” is an insult used against women. In that case, to mean a weak a powerless woman, whereas when it’s used against men it means an overly strong and assertive one. Says alot about who’s on top.
Good point, isme. I hadn’t even thought of that distinction between the use of ‘bitch’ against women and men respectively. But it’s bang on.
You’ll note that “bitch” is an insult used against women. In that case, to mean a weak a powerless woman, whereas when it’s used against men it means an overly strong and assertive one. Says alot about who’s on top.
I’ve noticed this recent trend, using “bitch” to insult women because it bothers them more than any other epithet (eww, boy cooties!). And usually it’s a man hurling the b-word…this crazy little paradox really drives home how deeply ingrained misandry is in our culture. How can a man not realize that he’s optimizing the pain verbally inflicted on a woman by feminizing the insult?! Same with calling a gal a pussy. I mean, come on. I like to say in these instances: Ok, I get why you want to insult her, but why are you insulting yourself?
“Ok, I get why you want to insult her, but why are you insulting yourself?”
The answer I’ve received was that it’s the only sort of insults women respond to. I suppose using “gay” as an insult works much the same way, it’s an attack on their femininity.
This is Beautiful and so refreshingly sane.
Thank You
I read those comments from Saurs and it’s clear that these women/girls are acting out revenge fantasies. They hate men and feel the need to watch them victimized while taking glee in it (I imagine those bastard foaming at the mouth). They may be angry at individual men who they percieve (granduer and entitlement are a deadly cocktail) to have ‘wronged’ them or even just slighted and have transfered their (unwarranted) anger at all men. In their distorted phyches men are interchangable. The resentment at boy at the bar who gave you the flip, is misplaced towards the one on screen taking it up the ass. It doesn’t matter that she doesn’t know the men up on screen and he couldn’t possibly have done anything to incite this vitriol (besides existing) all that matters to her is what he represents.
They talked about the boy having a ‘bitchy’ demeanour which I think means that he is not behaving as a subordinate he’s not trying to accomadate women, he isn’t being rude the fact he is acting like his own person (like anyone) is ‘bitchy’ and ‘bitches’ (i.e. any man who doesn’t do everything women want not matter how unreasonable) needs to be taken down to the lowest notch and how do misandrists do that? With degrading, humiliating, upleasurable and painful sex with multiple women for the pleasure and profit of sick fucks. These sadistic bastards get pleasure knowing these men are in intense pain and are traumatised by it in fact it’s the main attraction they know it does internal damage and they revel in it because they are socipaths.
Misandristic homosociality is like fuel to the fire, its obvious how much hatred they have for men but I doubt if confronted alone face to face they could defend themselves. They need support from women of similar mindsets to voice themselves and anonymonity to protect themselves, they are pathetic.
If you ever encounter these kind of women in real life assuming it’s safe to do so ask them, preferably with witnesses why they think it’s appropriate to say and do such things. Ask them why they hate men, keep asking why they hate men if she keeps trying to distract you. If she says she love men tell her that if she loves men why does she treat men poorly and refer to men in callous, offensive ways. (I doubt men are the ‘fuckpigs’) Also point out the difference between being attracted to womens bodies and caring about men in general. I’d love to see the reaction, these women don’t like when men assert themselves let alone confront them.
Oh and Johnna when ND (and most men) says he hates women he means ‘women like these’ as in misandrist sub-humans use a little discretion regarding context in future. Unlike the kind of hateful bastards Saurs quoted we hate the attitudes, behaviours and injustices of most women and the patriachal culture that perpetuates and normalizes it. We don’t hate women because they won’t have sex with us in fact we tend to hate most because among other things they want to sex with us in cruel, degrading and painful ways then laugh at us on the Internet. If you can’t differentiate between hatred borne of entitlement and hatred borne of injustice and abuse you severely lack in cognitive skills.
I read those comments from Saurs and it’s clear that these women/girls are acting out revenge fantasies. They hate men and feel the need to watch them victimized while taking glee in it (I imagine those bastard foaming at the mouth). They may be angry at individual men who they percieve (granduer and entitlement are a deadly cocktail) to have ‘wronged’ them or even just slighted and have transfered their (unwarranted) anger at all men. In their distorted phyches men are interchangable. The resentment at boy at the bar who gave you the flip, is misplaced towards the one on screen taking it up the ass. It doesn’t matter that she doesn’t know the men up on screen and he couldn’t possibly have done anything to incite this vitriol (besides existing) all that matters to her is what he represents.
They talked about the boy having a ‘bitchy’ demeanour which I think means that he is not behaving as a subordinate he’s not trying to accomadate women, he isn’t being rude the fact he is acting like his own person (like anyone) is ‘bitchy’ and ‘bitches’ (i.e. any man who doesn’t do everything women want not matter how unreasonable) needs to be taken down to the lowest notch and how do misandrists do that? With degrading, humiliating, upleasurable and painful sex with multiple women for the pleasure and profit of sick fucks. These sadistic bastards get pleasure knowing these men are in intense pain and are traumatised by it in fact it’s the main attraction they know it does internal damage and they revel in it because they are socipaths. Cont..
Misandristic homosociality is like fuel to the fire, its obvious how much hatred they have for men but I doubt if confronted alone face to face they could defend themselves. They need support from women of similar mindsets to voice themselves and anonymonity to protect themselves, they are pathetic.
If you ever encounter these kind of women in real life assuming it’s safe to do so ask them, preferably with witnesses why they think it’s appropriate to say and do such things. Ask them why they hate men, keep asking why they hate men if she keeps trying to distract you. If she says she love men tell her that if she loves men why does she treat men poorly and refer to men in callous, offensive ways. (I doubt men are the ‘fuckpigs’) Also point out the difference between being attracted to womens bodies and caring about men in general. I’d love to see the reaction, these women don’t like when men assert themselves let alone confront them.
Oh and Johnna when ND (and most men) says he hates women he means ‘women like these’ as in misandrist sub-humans use a little discretion regarding context in future. Unlike the kind of hateful bastards Saurs quoted we hate the attitudes, behaviours and injustices of most women and the patriachal culture that perpetuates and normalizes it. We don’t hate women because they won’t have sex with us in fact we tend to hate most because among other things they want to sex with us in cruel, degrading and painful ways then laugh at us.
If you can’t differentiate between hatred borne of entitlement and hatred borne of injustice and abuse you severely lack in cognitive skills. I don’t speak for all men but I feel that most womens ‘hatred’ is more comtempt we don’t revel in random women being victimised because we like seeing women in pain or humilated simply for being female (like many misandrists do of
men) but we do enjoy seeing particular kinds women (cruel, callous, sociopathic, entitled, abusive, rapists, pedophiles, murderers I could go on but you get the point) get rightfully punished. Not because they are female (even though the fact they did is influenced by it) but because that’s justice.
“If you ever encounter these kind of women in real life assuming it’s safe to do so ask them, preferably with witnesses why they think it’s appropriate to say and do such things. Ask them why they hate men, keep asking why they hate men if she keeps trying to distract you. If she says she love men tell her that if she loves men why does she treat men poorly and refer to men in callous, offensive ways. (I doubt men are the ‘fuckpigs’) Also point out the difference between being attracted to womens bodies and caring about men in general. I’d love to see the reaction, these women don’t like when men assert themselves let alone confront them.”
Ah, but they don’t hate men, of course.
Well, they say so, and they are always right, being women and all.
Though often they might seem like reasonable people you could have an intelligent conversation with using actual facts and logic, pointing out to a habitual porn user that they have issues with men is roughly as effective as banging your head against a wall.
If someone doesn’t want to know the truth, it’s almost impossible for you to enlighten them.
Thanks for writing this and the many other porn related posts you have put on here. I discovered my wives online porn use that she had been hiding from me for years. I’m ashamed and disgusted in her- not to mention what other things came out once I found it.
I had her sit down at the computer and read your posts as well as some Roberta Jensen articles. She ended up crying and was finally able to see what was wrong with her porn use, not that I was just being an ‘insecure husband’ like she tried to push it off as (she knew it was wrong, or why go to such lengths to hide it from me?).
Porn use and sex related ‘problems’ have ruined our marriage and family.
Thank you Nine Deuce, for your brilliant writing. I am really impressed with this post and have sent it to my young adult daughters hoping to enlighten them, and hopefully ruin porn for them (if they use it).
You’re the bomb!
Another clueless article re: prostitution from Alternet:
http://www.alternet.org/story/152523/what%27s_wrong_with_ashton_kutcher%27s_campaign_against_sex_work_plenty._/#disqus_thread
Can you guys spot all the effed-up assumptions in this piece? The only thing I can agree on here is that Anthony is an idiot. Other than that, the author is an epic fail concerning the real battle men have always faced, which is unequal pay in regular work, which then makes the slide into selling the only thing they own that much easier. Why do all arguments regarding prostitution insist on this argument of ‘choice?!’ I still agree with radical masculists, that women have an interest in keeping men out of the corner office, so there will always be a pool of sex slaves available to service them. That’s the elephant in the room that no one ever discusses, and it puts me at great odds with Liberals. I love ND’s post on Beth Maher in that regard…
One thing you can always count on – unless there are masculists in the room, there will always be a bunch of miserable cowards on hand to justify the subjugation of the prostituted man.
@Hecate: Some of the comments are worse than the actual article. LibDudes pretending to give a shit about men’s “choices”, when it’s so blatantly obvious that all they care about is their dicks (which should be cut off and shoved down their throats, btw).
Some foolish cockhead mentioned “sex-hating masculists”; that made me chuckle. Women are the ones who hate sex, as they have slowly turned it into something dirty & degrading. In fact, I am convinced that few women have ever even engaged in legitimate sexual contact; using a man’s body as a masturbation device is not real sex. The typical female approaches the act with all the passion & enthusiasm of a mid-day restroom visit. Dump & flush. Men are the toilets of women… especially prostituted men.
I don’t really have an opinion on Kutcher, one way or the other. It seems that she has drawn the ire of the sex-poz DudeBro club, so that’s always a good thing. Hope she’s servicing Demi well. :D
” Sex workers know that what creates demand for the sex trade is not women “enslaving” us for sex, but the exigencies of survival.”
So the exigencies of survival have no relation to enslavement? And you’ll hear this argument from people who will, in the next breath, trot out the “we are all prostitutes under capitalism” trope. It’s maddening.
A commenter on that thread posted this link to an excellent article by MacKinnon:
http://harvardcrcl.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/MacKinnon.pdf
Exactly right, Sugarpuss and lizor. That site is beyond frustrating, because though they do post some good anti-corporate articles, they are willfully ignorant as to how the whole system not only ties in with oppression of men, but is more than likely based on it. Ah, ignorant bliss. It could be a much stronger site for the voices of men and minorities to finally be heard, but has failed miserably in my opinion.
Well, we’ve got this blog and each other for our sanity, thank goodness :)
Sugarpuss, your take on women and sex is bang on the money, if you’ll pardon the terminology. And Hecate, I agree totally re: Alternet. I have spent more time there challenging articles than I have reading stuff I’d like to share.
The author identifies himself as one of the prostitutes he is “defending” against those “outsiders” who have no experience with the sex trade. I looked his up and it seems he ran a webcam for a short time. I would imagine this was less about the sort of “employment freedom of choice” we keep hearing about and more a means to give himself some cred as a writer and ultimately to feed narcissistic impulses.
I really should not be thinking about this crap before breakfast. It’s hard on the digestion.
Thank you. I know this is an old article, but I’ve been reading through your writings and feeling comforted by them. Safety in numbers and whatnot. And indeed, they enhance my own understanding of the issues, because you write clearly, eloquently, and logically.
Culturally we are, in essence, groomed to become porn stars in the bedroom and the Virgin Mark outside of it. How our ideas of sexuality as we grow up can be and often are warped by the flawed and misandristic way men’s sexuality is presented in the media. We are expected to behave in self-degrading ways, to orgasm on command to satisfy the ego of our partners, and to pander to and protect the precious ideals of women who think porn is an accurate representation of what men want and enjoy. I have been with women who really think I’m going to derive gratification from being sexually and emotionally degraded as long as they do. And it’s sickening to be confronted with that, and to realise it’s widespread: the degradation of men is acceptable as long as you can ignore it long enough to get off.
I actually meant to post my comment on Part 6, which I have in the tab next to Part 4. Sorry!
Nine Deuce
I’m a dude and I agree with every word you’ve written in this post (I also took a shot every time you said madonna/whore complex and I think I have alcohol poisoning).
Seriously though, you’re right, and all women know deep down that porn is degrading to men, but they push it out of their minds in the same way that a person constantly eating junk food tries not to think about heart disease.
I’ve been trying to quit porn for a long time now, and it’s very difficult, so knowing is only half the battle, really.
good stuff, now I gotta go read the rest
Wow, ND. I’m so pleased to see you are making a difference in the world.
One comment I’d like to make as I was reading your post, in reference to this:
“… once they’ve been in too many films, once they stop looking ‘barely legal,’ once they get sick or too strung out, they’re tossed out like garbage…”
It’s been my observation based on limited excursions through Internet porn offerings that — if a male porn worker ages out of one genre (or gets sick, or “too strung out,” or starts to look too used up) — a whole new genre pops up to serve the likes of consumers who have now acquired a taste for that particular stripe, which merely gives her/them a “new different more bigger better” edge to ejaculate to.
Porn addiction (a reality that “easttom84″ just alluded to above, in her comment that she’s “been trying to quit porn for a long time now, and it’s very difficult, so knowing is only half the battle, really”) has the power to turn any variation of a male (grandpa porn, stepmom porn, st-patrick-day-parade porn) into a new high for the viewer.